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All right, everybody. Welcome back to The Testing Psychologist podcast. And welcome to a business episode where we’re going to talk all about Form Publisher with Dr. Rebecca Murray-Metzger. So you have likely seen Rebecca in the Facebook group. She’s a longtime member of The Testing Psychologist [00:01:00] Community. But if not, that’s okay. You will learn a lot about how she uses Form Publisher in her practice and how it can help us as clinicians here today.
So let me tell you just a little bit about Rebecca.
Rebecca is a mother of three children, a licensed psychologist, and owner of Mind Matters, a group testing practice in San Francisco, California. She also owns and operates the Right Door, which is a shared office space for mental health and wellness professionals. She specializes in psychoeducational and neuropsychological evaluations for children, teens, and young adults with the goal of helping parents better understand their kids and helping school teams to better support their students.
As the owner of two businesses, she’s constantly looking for shortcuts in Google workspace, what used to be known as G-Suite and beyond in the hopes of having more time for her family and her hobbies which used to include hiking, skiing, swing dancing, and [00:02:00] organizing community events.
So Rebecca, like many of us, is really focused on efficiency and like you heard, making time for things outside of work. And today, we are talking all about Form Publisher, which is a fantastic tool that she has been honing over the years. And what Form Publisher does essentially is, it helps create a templated yet personal narrative from the history that we gather from clients. And there’s a lot more to say about it than that. That really doesn’t even do it justice. So I hope that you will stick around and listen as Rebecca dives deep into how she uses Form Publisher and how you might use Form Publisher as well.
Now, if you’re an advanced practice owner or a practice owner who hopes to be advanced in the next year or so, I would [00:03:00] invite you to check out the next cohort of The Testing Psychologist Advanced Practice Mastermind Group. It’s a group coaching experience where you’ll join about five other psychologists as we just work on leveling up your practice. So it could be hiring, it could be streamlining, it could be additional streams of income, just getting more efficient, buying a building, any number of things.
If that sounds interesting to you, then you can get more information at thetestingpsychologist.com/advanced and schedule a pre-group call to see if it’s a good fit. We start on June 10th. So I know that seems like a long time away, but the spots are filling up and we’d love to have you be a part of the group if you are interested. So check that out and let me know if you would like to chat.
Okay. Let’s jump to the interview with Dr. Rebecca Murray-Metzger all about Form Publisher.
Dr. Sharp: [00:04:00] Hey, Rebecca. Welcome to the podcast.
Dr. Rebecca: Hi, Jeremy. It’s so nice to be here.
Dr. Sharp: Yeah, thanks for coming on. I haven’t seen you in a little while. It’s good to see you.
Dr. Rebecca: Yeah.
Dr. Sharp: Thank you. I know that you have gained a little bit of notoriety in our Facebook community for this amazing tool that you have developed and figured out how to use for report writing. I’ve seen so many posts about it and I’ve seen people bombard you with email addresses to send to them. So I thought it would be great if we could just talk about it here on the podcast and maybe have just one single [00:05:00] link or something so that you don’t have to respond to all these different people.
Dr. Rebecca: Yeah, it’s actually really easy to respond because I have a Gmail template set up. And so when somebody emails me, I just send them the templates. It’s very easy to do.
Dr. Sharp: That’s great.
Dr. Rebecca: Yeah.
Dr. Sharp: That’s great. Okay. Well, we’re off to a good start. I’m super curious about this. I’ve heard so many people kind of mention it and talk to me about it. I want to know how it works. So let’s start at the beginning. So, a tool called Form Publisher, right?
Dr. Rebecca: Um-hum.
Dr. Sharp: I am curious how you even got the idea to pursue something like this. What was going on in your practice and what problem are you trying to solve?
Dr. Rebecca: So, I have used Form Publisher for a long time as a mom, right? Anytime I wanted to create a volunteer sign-up or [00:06:00] anything related to my kids’ school. So I was familiar with Google forms through that. And then I can’t even remember how I learned about Form Publisher. It is a blank spot in my memory. But I essentially was trying to save time. I mean, aren’t we all, right?
Dr. Sharp: Um-hum.
Dr. Rebecca: And I find there are certain aspects of writing reports that can be a little mind-numbing. Say the things you do over and over again, that you really don’t need a doctorate to do. And so, those kinds of things I’m always looking for ways to cut out the time I spend on them. So, that’s really what I was trying to do is save myself time on writing the history portion of the reports. And then by accident, it’s actually saved me [00:07:00] time during the interviews too. And I can talk more about how I use it in my practice but when I interview families, I find I’m able to talk about the meaningful pieces more in-depth and save time on some of the more demographic information.
Dr. Sharp: That’s interesting. Yeah. I want to dive deep into all of this. Before we totally go there, can you just back up a little bit, or we can back up a little bit, all backup, and explain what Form Publisher is? Like, what is it essentially doing?
Dr. Rebecca: Yeah, so I should back up even further than you suggested and say that these tools are used in Google Workspace or formerly known as G-Suite. They just changed the name. So for people interested in this, the very first step [00:08:00] is you need to sign up for Google workspace. Within Google workspace, you can create forms that people can fill out. And what the Form Publisher tool does is takes the information from the form and pushes it into a narrative that you’ve written.
So you have a personalized, it could be a letterhead, it could be the history section, it could be a progress note that you’ve written, and then it pushes the specific client information into that narrative. And then it emails the narrative to you. So you get a nice history section emailed directly to you after the client fills out the form.
DR. Sharp: Oh, that’s amazing. Okay. Now there is clearly some magic involved in the middle section there and I’m really interested in [00:09:00] that. Okay, just laying the groundwork though. Does it only work within G-Suite or Workspace?
Dr. Rebecca: Yes. Form Publisher and Google Form are unique to Google workspace. There is another option for people who don’t use G-Suite, which I’m happy to mention. Stephanie Nelson wrote a blog about it, TheFormTool.
Dr. Sharp: That’s right. TheFormTool?
Dr. Rebecca: Yeah.
Dr. Sharp: Okay. But Form Publisher is specific?
Dr. Rebecca: Yeah. So for people who hate Google, they should stop listening right now and go to Stephanie Nelson’s blog about TheFormTool.
Dr. Sharp: Great, I will link that in the show notes. That sounds good. So we’re going to focus on Google workspace and how to make this happen. So even more groundwork, when you say fill out a Google form, what is a Google form if anybody doesn’t know what that is?
Dr. Rebecca: [00:10:00] Yeah. So it is a form that I designed or you, anybody can design one, and it’s like a questionnaire. So it has questions and then the person who is completing it responds. You can set up questions to be short text responses, multiple-choice, check boxes so they can check multiple options, paragraphs. So, there’s quite a number of different question forms you can put on your form.
And then once you’ve designed the full form, you get a link. You can send that link to anybody by email, and they can just click on the link and the form will appear and they fill it out. Once they submit it, it goes to a Google sheet, which is Google’s version of Excel [00:11:00] in your G- Suite so you have all their responses. That’s the process of a Google form.
Dr. Sharp: Okay. Yeah, that’s fantastic. When we discovered Google forms, however, many years ago, it was really kind of an amazing moment because they are pretty powerful.
You can do a lot with Google forms. And I should mention too if people are using the workspace, it’s HIPAA compliant as well. So all this is secure as long as they’ve signed that BAA with Google.
Dr. Rebecca: Yes, you do need a paid version of Google workspace in order to sign a BAA, but the cheapest version is $6 a month which is totally worth it.
Dr. Sharp: It’s totally worth it.
Dr. Rebecca: That I can tell. Yeah.
Dr. Sharp: Yeah, it’s amazing. Okay. So we’ve got our Google Form. [00:12:00] We’ve got Form Publisher. So tell me a little bit more about how these things work together.
Dr. Rebecca: All right. So what Form Publisher is doing is taking that information that the client has entered into your Google form and pushing it into a narrative that you’ve created.
So for example, most of us in our history section, have a usual format that we follow. We have typical information we like to include, right? So, basically you find the spot in that narrative that would be unique to each client and you create a question on the form about that spot. And then when the person fills out the form, Form Publisher will push that little bit of information into that spot on your narrative. So you get a narrative that’s basically written for [00:13:00] you by the client.
Dr. Sharp: That sounds incredible. How does that happen? Like when you describe it that way, I just see… Like you use this phrase “push to a narrative.” I’m not sure how questions from the form or responses on the form turn into a narrative versus just being a long list of answers. You know what I mean?
Dr. Rebecca: Yes. So, I think the best… So Form publisher has a feature where you create your intake form and then you provide it, basically give it to Form Publisher. And it will generate a list of data labels essentially, then you know that you need to find a place in your narrative for all of these data labels.
So, [00:14:00] to try to explain this clearly because I think it’s hard to verbalize without a visual. You have your history narratives and you create an intake form that asks questions with each piece of information that would go into those spots in the narrative. Form Publisher has a tool that will take your intake form and generate a list of data labels that you can just insert into your narrative to create a template.
And it sounds complicated. Once you get into it, there are a lot of nice demo features in Form Publisher where it becomes clear how to do it. But I know it can be really [00:15:00] overwhelming. So one of the things I’ve done is created samples for people. And this is what you’ve seen people emailing me about. And so I provide them with a sample. What does a form look like? What does the narrative look like that gets produced? And it gives you a better idea of how it works practically. It’s much easier to conceptualize this I think with the visual example.
Dr. Sharp: Yeah. I could see that. I’m trying to picture it in my mind and it’s a little challenging. So yeah, I think it’d be great to see some of those examples.
Dr. Rebecca: Yeah.
Dr. Sharp: But generally speaking, it sounds like… Well, so here’s a question. Does that Google form take the place of your ‘intake paperwork?”
Dr. Rebecca: Yeah.
Dr. Sharp: That’s your demographic form, basically?
Dr. Rebecca: Yeah. You know what? It might help if I just [00:16:00] explain my process with clients, explain it from the end of how does a client experience this and then, what do I end up with?
Dr. Sharp: Sure. That’d be great.
Dr. Rebecca: Okay. So, once a client is signed up for an evaluation with me, I send them a link, it’s in an email, and ask them, ” Could you please fill out this intake form?” And this I do before the intake meeting. I asked them to have the form completed within at least two days ahead of the intake. They fill out the form. Clients have told me it takes them between 10 and 30 minutes to fill out the form. It depends on the client and how detailed they are. They submit the form. Form Publisher does its magic in the background and I get an email with a narrative version [00:17:00] of all the history information that I want to know about a client. And it’s based on what the parents put into the form.
So what I do is I review that in the 10 to 15 minutes before the intake and I highlight things that I might want to ask more about, or if the family has entered information in a way where it’s a little confusing, I just use my yellow highlighter feature on my Google doc. And then when I meet with the family, I already know a lot about their questions and concerns, and I already have a lot of that detailed information, the birth and weight and all of that, that I don’t need to spend time asking them at all. And so, I always start [00:18:00] my intakes with a general opportunity to connect with them around their worries.
So we spend 10 or 15 minutes just talking before I turn to the form and ask for some specific information to fill it in, clarifying. And I’ll just type right into the history narrative. And then at the end of the intake, my history is essentially written. It does need clean-up because when you’re interviewing and typing, it’s never perfect, but I have an assistant who cleans it up for me in about 20 minutes. And then that portion of the reports written at the end of the intake.
Dr. Sharp: That sounds incredible. Is it just life-changing?
Dr. Rebecca: Yeah, it really, really helps. I feel more prepared for intakes. [00:19:00] I know more about the child we’re going to be talking about. It saves me time in the interview because I can focus on the big questions that they have. We can spend more time establishing rapport and connecting rather than just asking detailed yes and no data questions.
Dr. Sharp: Sure.
Dr. Rebecca: And then to have the history section pretty much written at the end of the intake is great.
Dr. Sharp: That’s great. If you had to ballpark it, how much of the history is kind of pre-written versus how much you fill in during the interview?
Dr. Rebecca: That’s a really good question. I would say, first of all, it depends on the client. So this is something I want to mention. I think [00:20:00] this approach is really useful with clients who are relatively used to using technology and filling out forms. It hasn’t worked as well. I have some clients whose most of their internet access is through their phone and that can be harder for them to really put time into the form.
So for those clients, I find the information I have is pretty sparse and I still have to get quite a bit in the interview. I still think it saves time. And it also reduces errors because they type in names and they type in some of the demographic information and I don’t have to worry about misspelling it as an issue.
But with most of my clients, I live in the Bay area right near Silicon Valley, most of them are really comfortable with technology. And they also [00:21:00] tend to be pretty good reporters in terms of what they remember. So I find that during the interview, I add maybe a paragraph or two about the family’s questions and concerns, or maybe examples.
That’s something that I’m often asking for in the interview that I don’t get to the form. And I do find that I sometimes need to flesh out the academic section. So parents will report on the form, Oh, reading was fine, writing was fine. And sometimes when I dig into it, it turns out there were little red flags that they hadn’t thought about.
So, I’d say probably at least 75% written, but I definitely do need to add to it.
Dr. Sharp: It’s still impressive. [00:22:00] It makes me think about the form that people are filling out. And I have a lot of questions about that, but maybe the first one is, how detailed is that form? That’s a hard question to answer. But maybe a better question is, what sort of things are you asking on that form?
Dr. Rebecca: One of the things I send to people when they inquire about it is my forms so that they can see what questions are in there.
Dr. Sharp: Okay.
Dr. Rebecca: I ask a lot of factual background questions, you know, birth and weight and medical issues, those kinds of things, but also some more open-ended questions like, what’s the child’s greatest strengths and what are your questions you’d like the evaluation to [00:23:00] answer? So there’s a variety of types of information. Clients have told me it takes them between 15 or so and 30 minutes to fill out. I’ve had a few clients that said it took them an hour, but that’s more about them than my form.
So, it’s fairly detailed. And then my history section ends up being about a page and a half or two pages.
Dr. Sharp: Okay. I got you. It seems like this will be really easy to capture like factual information like you said. I am curious how you tackle the presenting concern section of a history where it’s for me, at least that’s pretty open-ended. So I’m curious how what that might look like.
Dr. Rebecca: Yeah, I think I ground that in [00:24:00] asking the parents, what questions are you hoping the evaluation will address? And they usually will list several questions. Usually, that prompts them to put it in a list form. And I started just… I write my reports in the pyramid style. And so I’ll actually take those questions and put them right after my introductory paragraph on the first page. And my history is now in an appendix. So most of the history is buried in the report.
So yeah, I find that the presenting concerns listed in a question format really help me writing the summary too. So I appreciate it.
Dr. Sharp: I can imagine. Very cool. So people fill out this form, they type in their answers to the questions that you’ve already [00:25:00] devised, that goes into the magic world of Form Publisher, which manipulates it and turns it into a narrative. And thinking about this outcome, when you say narrative, is it a narrative that we would… like, could you tell a difference between a Form Publisher written narrative and a handwritten narrative?
Dr. Rebecca: I think if I sunk a lot more time into tweaking my narrative and my questions to align them, it could be pretty seamless. But I decided, I wanted it close, that it was okay with me if I have to spend 10 or 15 minutes editing it a little bit. But I phrase and people can see if they look at the form, the way the questions are phrased, and the way the responses, [00:26:00] either using checkboxes or multiple-choice, the responses are written in such a way that it can be put right in a gap in a sentence to create a seamless phrase or sentence.
Dr. Sharp: Right.
Dr. Rebecca: So, it’s pretty personal. You can produce decent text through this. It doesn’t sound robotic most of the time.
Dr. Sharp: Okay. That’s the concern, I think is that it feels like one of those just like plug-and-play templated kind of things that feels less personal or something.
Dr. Rebecca: Yeah. I spend a little time, like I said, adding in some things. But it doesn’t take long. And in my history, there are sections and you can build right into the [00:27:00] narrative headings and prompts for yourself to write further information that isn’t coming from the form. So I have a section for prior evaluations. And the parents don’t fill out anything about that but there’s a prompt for me or my assistant to know we need to put in this information from the prior eval report. It’s pretty flexible.
Dr. Rebecca: It does sound flexible. Yeah. So how much time did it take you to set all this up?
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All right, let’s get back to the podcast.
Dr. Rebecca: Once I got familiar with the tool using their demos and just playing around a little, it took me about six hours to set up my intake form and the narrative template, and then install them on my G suite, my [00:29:00] Google workspace.
Dr. Sharp: Okay. Six hours. That sounds like a lot. And if you think how many intakes you’ve probably done since then, I’m guessing it saves you at least an hour of time for every intake.
Dr. Rebecca: Roughly.
Dr. Sharp: So it pays for itself “pretty quickly”.
Dr. Rebecca: Yeah. And I do offer to people if they want to buy my template, they can. Most people have told me that if they use my template, it takes them about an hour to set up. Unfortunately, I only have a template for a pediatric intake because we only see children, not adolescents and adults, but that is another way to save more time.
Dr. Sharp: Yeah, definitely. I’m [00:30:00] guessing that, gosh, theoretically, you could sell that for like $500 or more. And I’m guessing you’re not selling it for $500.
Dr. Rebecca: I don’t. I sell it for $100. I figure it’s nice for me, but it also saves people time. And one of the things I love about The Testing Psychologists Community is how much people help each other with ideas. So I also think of it as a way to just help other psychologists.
Dr. Sharp: Yeah.
Dr. Rebecca: I’m not trying to fund a trip to Tahiti off of it.
Dr. Sharp: Just very slowly. Maybe in 10 years.
Dr. Rebecca: Yeah.
Dr. Sharp: That’s really cool. What else about this tool would be worth us knowing? What have I not asked about it or [00:31:00] what are cool features or even challenges with it that would be good to know about?
Dr. Rebecca: Yeah. So, a couple of things. I do think there are many more uses for it. And one of the people who bought my templates and started using it, Chris Barnes, who you know, he’s using it for all kinds of things now. He uses it for progress notes and collecting information from collateral context. He did offer that he would share some of those templates with people too. And so anyone who emails me about this, I’ll connect them with what he has. But I really think for him it really has endless use uses.
Something that it does that I haven’t tapped into is you can actually have people sign the [00:32:00] forms. So there’s an e-signature option. So technically, you could use it for your consent forms. People could create consent forms for people. I can’t speak to how to do that personally just because I haven’t used it myself, but it does. You can also embed a video. So that is something I’ve thought about is having a video at the start of the form that coaches or coaxes parents to fill out in a way that’s going to be most useful for me, detailed but not too detailed basically is what I need.
So there’s a lot of potential I think with the Google form and Form Publisher.
Dr. Sharp: Yeah. It sounds like it.
Dr. Rebecca: I think another question I get a lot is about HIPAA compliance.
Dr. Sharp: Of course.
Dr. Rebecca: [00:33:00] Yeah, so I’m actually not… my business is not a HIPAA-covered entity because I don’t bill insurance. We’re all private pay. But I do, of course, try to follow those guidelines and certainly protect client confidentiality. So I know some information I can share about that. So Google form, if you’ve signed a BAA with Google workspace, Google form is HIPAA compliant.
Form Publisher follows the European standard. It was the GDPR, I think it says, which is even more protective and more restrictive than HIPAAs rules. So if it follows the [00:34:00] standards, you can be confident that it’s going to protect information to the degree that HIPAA does or HIPAA compliance tools do. I know that even with that though, somebody who is a HIPAA-covered entity would need a BAA which you can have with Form Publisher. And in my instructions, I tell people how to do that. So it is it’s certainly possible, but you do have to sign a second BAA with Form Publisher.
The other thing to know people ask me, is this going to cost money to have Form Publisher? There is a free version of Form Publisher that lets you have up to 20 different people can complete any given form per month. For [00:35:00] me, that’s been fine. We don’t see more than 20 clients a month. But if you do have more than 20 clients a month filling out your intake form, then you would have to pay $79 a year to get the individual premium version of Form Publisher.
Dr. Sharp: Oh gosh. That’s nothing.
Dr. Rebecca: Yeah. So, we’re talking $79 a year for Form Publisher and $6 a month for Google workspace. And that would be your cost.
Dr. Sharp: It sounds like a pretty amazing tool that saves you a lot of time and has a lot of flexibility. What’s not to love?
Dr. Rebecca: You’ve summed it up.
Dr. Sharp: That’s great. Well, it’s just, I love things like this that are, I don’t know about simple exactly. But these are things that are hidden in plain [00:36:00] sight that we may not be aware of but can do wonders in our practice. And it’s always nice to see psychologists finding ways to utilize these tools and improve our practices. Because like you said, a lot of these things, a lot of these tasks are just kind of rote tasks that we don’t need to be doing. And so if we can automate those things and have it still sound personable, that’s ideal.
Dr. Rebecca: Yeah. And I will say too, having families fill this format ahead of time, I think helps orient them to the conversation they’re going to have with me. And I think a regular paper intake form might do that as well, but I do find that [00:37:00] they tend to come in with a more clear idea of what their questions are. And it helps focus our conversation a little more effectively than I was finding before I started using the form.
Dr. Sharp: That’s an interesting observation. Yeah, I know there’s probably a term for that when people, you know, it’s like front-loading or something. They organize their thoughts ahead of time. But yeah, I could see that. So then you’re not springing that question on them in the interview, right?
Dr. Rebecca: Yeah. Although I must caveat that with the fact that usually, one parent fills up the form and the other one does not. And so, sometimes I have to do some looping in of the parent because I have all the information that one parent shared with me and I have to make sure I [00:38:00] get the perspective of the other parent in the history.
Dr. Sharp: Okay. I see. Well, this has been really helpful. I think you’re demystifying a process that can sound kind of mystical if we don’t know much about it. So, thanks for explaining all the details with it. And I’ll link to everything that you mentioned in the show notes. And if people do want to reach out and get any of these things that you’ve put together, what’s the best way to do that?
Dr. Rebecca: Sure. It’s probably easiest just to email me, rebecca@sfmindmatters.com but I will also give you something to put in the show notes that will link people to a Google doc so they can just access these free examples that I’ve told you [00:39:00] about. So that they can check that out. And then if it seems like it might be helpful in their practice and they want to look into buying templates to save themselves a little more time, then they can email me.
Dr. Sharp: Okay. Perfect. Well, this is great. Thank you so much for coming on. It’s nice to have you on the podcast. You, I think have the unofficial claim to, what would I call it? Like Best Podcast Guest Facilitator Award. You’ve hooked me up with numerous podcast guests that you just happen to know or know of, and they’ve come on the podcast.
So I’m glad to finally have you here and let you talk about something.
Dr. Rebecca: I love connecting people. That’s how I market. Actually., it’s just connecting people. So it brings me joy to do that. I’m glad it’s worked out.
Dr. Sharp: I’m very grateful. Yes. Well, thanks for sharing all of this. [00:40:00] I’ll make sure all the info’s in the show notes if people want to reach out and let me know if you find other tools that save us a lot of time, and you can come back on.
Dr. Rebecca: Thanks.
Dr. Sharp: Okay, y’all, thank you for checking out this episode. I hope you enjoyed it. I love technology and any tool that will help us practice more efficiently. Hopefully, you have got your wheels turning about how Form Publisher might work in your practice.
Now, quick note, if you do not use Google workspace or G-Suite, Form Publisher is specific to Google workspace. Like we mentioned in the podcast, Stephanie Nelson has a great article on how to use something called FormTool, which I think is just generally windows compatible. If that is more attractive to you, there is a link in the show notes to her article. So you can check that out as well.
But [00:41:00] there’s plenty of information in the show notes. If you want to get in touch with Rebecca or access any of the information she talked about or templates or tools or support documents, or even talk with her directly. She’s fantastic.
Like I said at the beginning, if you’re an advanced practice owner or a soon-to-be advanced practice owner, I would invite you to check out the Advanced Practice Mastermind Group that’s coming up here in June. It’s a group coaching experience where we’ll try to hold each other accountable while we reach those goals that may have been elusive thus far and provide support and guidance and hopefully gets you to where you want to go with your practice, whatever that next level might be. So you can get more information at thetestingpsychologist.com/advanced and schedule a pre-group call.
Okay, thanks for listening. Hope you all are doing well. And we’ll talk to you next week.
[00:42:00] The information contained in this podcast and on The Testing Psychologists website is intended for informational and educational purposes only. Nothing in this podcast or on the website is intended to be a substitute for professional, psychological, psychiatric, or medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Please note that no doctor-patient relationship is formed here and similarly, no supervisory or consultative relationship is formed between the host or guests of this podcast and listeners of this podcast. If you need the qualified advice of any mental health practitioner or medical provider, please seek one in your area. Similarly, if you need supervision on [00:43:00] clinical matters, please find a supervisor with expertise that fits your needs.