18 Transcript

Dr. Jeremy Sharp Transcripts Leave a Comment

[00:00:00] Dr. Sharp: This is Dr. Jeremy Sharp. Welcome to The Testing Psychologist podcast, episode 18.

Hey, welcome everybody to another episode of The Testing Psychologist podcast. I’m Dr. Jeremy Sharp. Today, I’m talking with Allison Puryear. I got introduced to Allison through our mutual connection Joe Sanok, who I’ve talked about on the podcast before.

I did some consulting with Joe over the last several months and he is understandably well-connected in the mental health consulting world. He hooked me up with Allison, and we had a good conversation two weeks ago. I’m thankful that she is going to spend some time with us on the podcast today to talk about all sorts of things that I think will be helpful for [00:01:00] y’all.

So I’ll do a brief introduction and then we can just dive into it.

Allison Puryear is an LCSW with a nearly diagnosable obsession with business development. She started practices in three different states and would like you to know that building a private practice is shockingly doable when you have a plan and support, which we’ll talk a lot about. Allison has a private practice and she also does consulting through her consulting business, Abundance Practice Building.

Allison, welcome to The Testing Psychologist.

Allison: Thanks so much for having me, Jeremy.

Dr. Sharp: Great to have you. I’m excited to talk with you. We have any number of things we could get into, but the thing that jumps out right away is, and I’ve heard you talk about this on other podcasts and whatnot, but you have started over in your private practice three different times, at least that I know [00:02:00] of. Is that right?

Allison: That’s true, plus two maternity leaves.

Dr. Sharp: Plus two maternity leaves. Okay. My admiration for you just went through the roof.

Allison: Thanks.

Dr. Sharp: Yeah, for sure. I think that just gives me chills and terrors to think about starting my private practice over. Maybe let’s just talk about that. That’s a good place to start.

Allison: Sounds good.

Dr. Sharp: So why did you have to do that and how did you do that? Let’s just go there.

Allison: I guess we’ll start chronologically. My husband and I were living in Athens, Georgia. I’d been working for the university there and also had a private practice on the side. I needed to get out of my full-time job but my husband was interviewing all over the country for PA school.

He ended up getting in at the University of Washington, which was [00:03:00] our top choice. And so instead of quitting my job and going whole hog into this private practice for like six months and then moving, I maintained the small private practice and continued to try not to get super burned out in my full-time job. I did this part-time practice, full-time job thing for five years, which looking back on that, I’m like, what, Allison, why did you do that? But I did love my full-time job for a long time. It was just at the end that it was not so great.

By the time we moved to Seattle, I was at the end of my agency rope. I was not going to work for another bureaucracy. I’d had really bad experiences working in agencies, despite being pretty easily managed. I’m a good employee and I’m a people pleaser which I’m working on, but it’s not that I was the rebellious employee who didn’t like authority. I love authority. Please give me some rules and boundaries, but I just worked for [00:04:00] some toxic agencies.

As we were preparing to move to Seattle, I was like, babe, I know you’re not going to be able to work while you’re in school because his program was 80 hours a week but I absolutely can’t do this agency thing. So I’m going to try to do full-time private practice and I promise I’ll get a job if money is running low, but deep down inside, there is no chance I was going to let that happen.

So we moved to this brand new city where I didn’t know anybody and I decided to throw myself in it as hard and as fast as I could. I’m a tenacious person, so I just used every single ounce of that that I had in me and it was great. I had an incredible time building in Seattle. It was incredibly empowering. It was totally scary. There are some rose-colored glasses going on, I’m sure, but overall, I felt [00:05:00] like I stepped into myself as a powerful woman for the first time in my life.

Dr. Sharp: Oh, that’s interesting. What do you think you learned about yourself during that time in Seattle when you were building your practice?

Allison: I think moving across the country where I didn’t know anybody was already a big leap. I’m very community-oriented and had lived in one place for most of 13 years. So I had a very tight secure network of friends.

And so I think recognizing that, oh, I can make friends anywhere. This is nice. I can build this business and be far more emotionally satisfied and financially comfortable than I ever thought possible as a therapist, because I was trained as a social worker and my program had a lot of emphasis on like, you’ll do really good work in the world, just don’t expect to make money.

So it was nice [00:06:00] to bust through the ceiling I thought that existed that didn’t and find my work so fulfilling. It was a powerful experience for me and I think it helped me fall in love with private practice just the way everything fell together.

Dr. Sharp: That sounds like a really amazing experience. Did you have to do a lot of that when you built your practice on the side back in Georgia?

Allison: I didn’t. It was a small city. I had a sought-after niche. I was known in the community already as somebody who provided this. So clients came easily. I never had to work for it, honestly. I just had to let people know that were already in my social network and professional network that I was doing it.

It was also a nice wake-up call to go from being super well connected, very easy start to a private practice to the early days of Seattle where I would lie if I was not saying, [00:07:00] I was sitting on the floor crying probably two times a week early on. So let’s keep it real, right?

Dr. Sharp: Yeah, I appreciate that. No, those early days are really hard for a number of reasons, but certainly moving to a place where you don’t know anyone, that’s extra hard.

Allison: Yeah.

Dr. Sharp: Goodness. But then you did it again.

Allison: Yeah. So my mother-in-law was sick and so we needed to move back across the country to the Southeast so we could be closer. So we moved here to Asheville, North Carolina. I was building my practice and it was going well and it was building up pretty quickly and I knew we were putting roots down here and I started getting sad that this was going to be my last practice that I would build, that once I got it up and running, it would be self-sustaining and I wouldn’t do this marketing stuff anymore.

I was sad about it. I thought, well, [00:08:00] that’s interesting. Am I crazy? What’s going on? And that’s a piece of what ended up having me create Abundance Practice Building, in helping other people build, I get to live vicariously through other people as they build their practice while also all the marketing efforts that go into an online business.

Dr. Sharp: Right. That’s an interesting way to look at it, that you’re living vicariously through these other folks who you consult with. I could totally get that, it’s not feasible to just keep moving across the country and starting practices.

Allison: I think I’m not enough of a gypsy soul for that.

Dr. Sharp: Got you.

Allison: I’d like to claim it.

Dr. Sharp: Right. Have you always been what I would call an extrovert or someone, I perceive you to be an extrovert just by virtue of the way you’ve built these practices. I assume it takes some of that, but I don’t know if that’s true or not.

[00:09:00] Allison: Yeah. I say I’ve been an extrovert and outgoing most of my life. I went through a shy period, but I’m pretty outgoing and pretty extroverted. So it worked for me to use networking as a primary means of building my business because then when I’m in a new city all by myself, whether it’s Seattle or Asheville, it was a way to meet new people. It was a way to get my need for connection met and it made it fun and helped me learn cities. So that was fun.

Dr. Sharp: Absolutely. That’s cool. It sounds like you came by this consulting niche because I would say I’ve always heard marketing and reaching out and networking is your niche within consulting even, it seems like you came by that pretty honestly and it’s something that you enjoy.

Allison: Yeah. I think it’s possible for almost anybody to enjoy networking with enough reframing and training. [00:10:00] So that’s one thing I love doing.

Dr. Sharp: Well, I’d like to talk with you about some of that. Maybe we could jump into that. I think that’s a big leap for a lot of folks. I don’t know if I’m generalizing here, I’m sure I’m generalizing, but folks who do a lot of testing or assessment tend to be fairly data-driven and maybe more prone to staying in their offices and looking at data and writing reports and that sort of thing, so I wonder if it might be a little tougher for testing folks to get out and do this marketing, networking kind of thing.

Allison: Yeah, I can totally see that.

Dr. Sharp: I know you talk with a lot of folks in your consulting, have you seen folks who are building practices around testing or assessment?

Allison: Primarily, it’s usually counseling, though I have some people who do assessment as a part of their practice, but not the primary [00:11:00] means.

Dr. Sharp: Yeah, certainly. So through that experience, have you seen any concerns or issues that are specific around the testing, like how you market that stuff or how you reach out and network with folks? Has that come up at all?

Allison: I think of testing as such a nice, natural, beautiful niche that makes marketing easier, actually.

Dr. Sharp: Ah, I like that. Beautiful niche. That’s great. I’m going to take that. Talk to me about that, what makes it easier, you think?

Allison: Especially if you look at the assessments you enjoy doing, so if you enjoy ADHD testing in children, for instance, that’s like who to network with on a silver platter. You’ve got pediatricians, you have family doctors, you have therapists who treat families, therapists who treat kids, therapists who treat frustrated parents. So you have all of these different people, dieticians who might be helping families work with [00:12:00] different dietary means to help their kid calm down.

So you have all of these people you can reach out to and let them know what you’re doing and you are helping them. I think that’s one of the things that we have to keep in mind around networking is it’s not about going and selling yourself to someone because I would hate networking if that’s what it’s about. That would feel creepy. What it’s about is letting people know what you can offer that will help them.

Dr. Sharp: How do you do that without seeming creepy and pushy?

Allison: Therapists are a good example. They’re, I would say, the starter package for networking because we tend to, like most people we meet, that’s a generalization, we might be interested in people a little bit more than the average person. And so I always say with networking, especially if you’re reticent to start easy, you don’t have to be a hero. Find some therapists you’ve heard good things about, or [00:13:00] maybe you’re friends with some friends of yours, the low-hanging fruit, find them, reach out.

I usually send an email because, at 37, maybe I’m on the edge of the generation where the phone feels a little too intimate for a first conversation. I am more comfortable reaching out to strangers via email. So I email.

I usually have a subject line of I’d like to connect and that way they’re clear it’s probably not a client but it’s also interesting to click on. Then I usually say what I have in contact with or in common with them. So it might be like, oh, we’re both friends with Jane Doe. I’ve heard good things about your work. I’d really love to get together for coffee in order to learn more about you and your business.

Sometimes they reply, sometimes they don’t. And that’s one thing to note that if you’re sending out one email at a time and expecting a response, you’re going to be waiting for a while. So go ahead and scatter shots, send out [00:14:00] five and you’ll probably get two or three back.

And then if you’re an introvert, maybe schedule one, maybe two networking events per week, but just try to get it consistent where it’s a part of your week and it’s not something you binge on in a week. Let’s keep it low-key and easy.

If you’re like me and you’re extroverted and you like any excuse to get together with strangers, I’m so weird in that way, then sure, book five in a week, do whatever. When you get together with them, just talk to them like human beings. We’re good at connecting.

If you’re doing assessments, then you’re good at connecting enough that people are giving you responses. They’re not just staring at you with their mouth agape. So talk to them like you’re wanting to get to know them as a person. Do ask them about their business but the conversation doesn’t have to focus on their business. You guys will get to that, it’s the thing you have in common, [00:15:00] so it’ll come about naturally and you don’t have to push it.

Dr. Sharp: Yeah. I think that’s so true. I’ve talked about networking more in the sense of just building relationships more than anything else. If I think back to all my conversations with folks, there are some, depending on the frame where we’ll talk about business stuff pretty quickly and that’s that but most of them, we just ended up talking about all sorts of things; our kids or the South where I’m also from or college football, whatever it might be, and then the conversation will find its way back to the business but you got to get comfortable first, I think.

Allison: And I hear a lot of people say like, oh, but I hate small talk. I can understand that, most of us, we like to go deep. It’s part of our training and part of what attracted us to the field potentially but you can’t go deep without knowing a little bit about [00:16:00] somebody.

So to think about it as laying the groundwork for those kinds of conversations that you might want to have with them later and knowing who felt like a nice, easy connection and nurturing that connection. I don’t think that you need to have a second networking date with somebody where it was awkward and uncomfortable and you could not wait to leave, just leave it be. They probably had the same experience.

Dr. Sharp: That’s a great point. Don’t force it.

Allison: Yeah.

Dr. Sharp: Do you have anything that you found that makes it easier for folks who might be a little more introverted to get through that 15, 20, 30 minutes when you meet with someone for the first time and are trying to do that small talk thing? How do you approach that?

Allison: I think first it’s looking at what are you most comfortable doing. Usually, introverts are much more comfortable asking questions about the other person and letting that other person take the stage. [00:17:00] And then it’s just using the social skills that you have, shy, introvert or not, you have the social skills most likely to leapfrog questions after what they say.

I’ve talked to people for a long time about quilting and I don’t know the first thing about quilting because I would be like, tell me more about that. Where did you learn to do that? So using the part of you that’s really interested in other people, using that skill set to get to know this person. You don’t have to save it for the assessment or the counseling room.

Dr. Sharp: And that seems easy. When you say that, it’s like, oh yeah, I know how to do that. I can answer questions. I do that all the time.

Allison: Totally. I’ve had this conversation with my partner. He’s a mountain biker and he’ll go on and on about this mountain bike he’s looking at. I can sit there and be like, uh, uh or I can ask him questions like, tell [00:18:00] me more about that dropper post, that sounds fascinating. How does that work and why? In that way, we’re having a better time talking. I’m less bored and more engaged. It doesn’t mean I am interested in mountain biking, but he loves it so I’ll join him with it conversationally, at least.

Dr. Sharp: Right. That’s great. You’re right, that makes the conversation better for everybody if you’re engaged to some degree. So the therapists, it sounds like is low-hanging fruit, which I would agree with. That seems pretty easy.

The thing with testing is that we are often trying to network and maybe garner referrals from folks who are traditionally hard to talk with. Physicians, of course, school counselors, psychologists, and attorneys, I think about are big referral sources for us a lot [00:19:00] of the time. So I wonder what some of your thoughts might be on getting in and having some of those harder conversations that might be tougher to land, so to speak.

Allison: So the thing about therapists is we’ll run on and on. If we have a lunch hour, we’ll talk the whole time. You’re not going to get the lunch hour of an attorney or a doctor most likely. So you have to get in and get out quickly to make it loaded with good information that’s going to make it easy for them to refer to you and to remember if you’re getting intimidated, that you were making their lives easier.

When my husband was in family practice, he was clear that 15 minutes for his clients who had some mental health issues was not even close to adequate to helping them. He could prescribe medication, but he knows that’s not solving the problem.

So he was always really happy to find good therapists to refer people to because he cared that his patients got what they needed. [00:20:00] And so in that way, even though he was crazy busy when people would come by to network with him, it was the sense of like, oh, thank God, I’ve got somebody to refer to.

So I think staying in this mindset because I think many of us can get intimidated by physicians and attorneys, staying in the mindset that we are helping them do their job better. We have a skill set they don’t have and we’re making their lives easier.

And being tenacious, not taking it personally if the front desk staff doesn’t want you to do a little talk because that’s one thing you might do is offer a talk about how to get somebody in for testing or how to recognize the unseen signs of whatever diagnostic criteria that the doctor might not know about that you’re seeing it, you’re testing.

So you can do little talks. Most likely the doctors are going to come in and grab whatever food you brought and leave, but the nurses are there and the [00:21:00] nurses have a lot of power. They’re often the drivers of referrals. So that’s one way.

Dr. Sharp: Sure. Just a practical question with that, say you’re able to land a talk and you mentioned the food thing, I know a lot of people who have agonized over what kind of food to bring and do you bring anything else? Do you bring healthy food? Do you not? All of that. Have you found anything that works in those situations or how to approach that?

Allison: I’d ask the front desk. Ask them, say like, what do you guys want? And then you’re bringing them something different than from what the drug representative bought them yesterday, and it’s maybe something across town that they never get that they really want. So they may think even more positively about you because you fed them well.

Dr. Sharp: Oh, yeah. I think that makes a big difference.

[00:22:00] Allison: Yeah.

Dr. Sharp: That sounds good. Okay, I like that piece about you doing them a favor, which I think is totally true. And especially, at least here, I know that that’s a big deal. I get referrals from folks who I’ve never actually met in person but they have our information and have seen reports over the years. They need something quickly and easily and someone they know they can rely on.

Let me switch gears just a little bit. I’ve heard you talk on your own podcast, which is great by the way. It’s called the Abundant Practice podcast. I’ll put in a little plug because I think you do a cool format with your podcast. Allison does this thing where on Mondays she’ll talk with someone who has a very specific consulting issue and they’ll chat. Then she’ll bring in another consultant on Wednesday to go back over and add any thoughts [00:23:00] or brainstorm and flesh it out a little bit more. And then on Friday you come back and circle around and give a clear action item for people to act on.

It works really well and it’s cool. Your podcasts aren’t super long. I can listen to them really quickly and yet there’s a lot of helpful information.

Allison: Thanks.

Dr. Sharp: Yeah, of course. I thought I would throw that out there. I’ve been listening lately. One thing I heard you talk about though, here recently has been money mindset stuff. I think that is really important for us, particularly with testing.

Insurance is one thing and that’s a whole other deal with insurance and testing but a lot of folks are just trying to establish fee for service testing practices and I think it can be tough because when clients call, that initial conversation about what are your fees, it [00:24:00] goes from, well, I charge $150 an hour up to maybe I charge $2,000 for an evaluation or $3,000 or even $1500. We’re throwing out pretty big sums of money right off the bat and I think that’s hard for a lot of folks to figure out how to do that and how to be comfortable with that.

And so I was wanting to talk with you a little bit about the money mindset and getting comfortable with having fees like that and talking with people about it. I wonder, do you have ideas or thoughts or even resources around wrapping your mind around charging a full fee like that and getting comfortable with taking that much money from folks?

Allison: Yeah. First, it’s thinking not about the time that you’re spending with the person as much as what you’re providing for them. Like you are ruling in or ruling out a [00:25:00] diagnostic issue that could drastically change their treatment, change their life, you can’t put a sum on that.

Someone being able to be clear like you’re on the autism spectrum and in here or now, with this diagnosis, you now have all of these resources available to you. We have best practices we can follow that without that diagnostic, you wouldn’t be able to either access or know where to go with it.

So I think it’s looking at what you’re providing with people and valuing that. It’s like with networking, you were making people’s lives better. It’s not that you’re giving them news they want to hear all the time but you are bringing clarity that they need or they wouldn’t be sitting in your office.

So I think rooting into that and looking at your why, like why do you do what you [00:26:00] do? Why did you choose this out of all the other professions you could have chosen? Because you have to be pretty freaking smart to do this.

And knowing that that is worth, not just what you’re doing but the reason that you’re doing it, those things are worth being paid a good living. There’s a lot of school that you have to go through for that. There’s a lot of heart that you’ve had to put into learning everything that you’ve needed to learn.

Dr. Sharp: I think that’s so true.

Allison: I’d say that first. And then I’d also say to look at, what was my other point? Just flew out of my head. Being clear, we’ve all got money stuff.

One of the groups in my Practice Building Group, it’s a three-month thing that I do. The third one is all about money. I’ve had people in my group who grew up in multimillionaire households. I’ve had people in group who’ve grown up in [00:27:00] poverty and I’m entirely clear, none of us gets out of or gets into adulthood without some money stuff. And it’s so rooted in security and self-worth.

If we can be curious about that and keep looking instead of buying into the shame that might come up when we say the number and practicing saying the number. I know it sounds silly, but like when you’re washing your hair in the shower, say, oh, this assessment costs $3,500, when you’re driving down the road in your car, practicing, this assessment is $1495, and just practicing saying it out loud, because you might get comfortable with it in your head, but the first time you say it out loud to a client, you might trip over it because it feels different when you’re saying it.

Dr. Sharp: Absolutely. You said a minute ago that a lot of the difficulty with the money conversation is wrapped up in self-worth. Is [00:28:00] that right?

Allison: Oh yeah.

Dr. Sharp: Can you say more about that at all?

Allison: I’ve seen it in a few different ways. Having run these groups for a few years, I get this nice overview of people who grew up in many different ways. I grew up working class personally, so I had this mindset, I still have to work on it. It’s not like I’m done with it, but I’m certainly farther than I was, of I have to work hard to earn the money that I make, if I don’t work hard, then somehow I’m a jerk or I’m not worthy.

So for mine, my proletariat upbringing, where working hard is the most important thing, it’s really hard for me to take it easy and not push the limits all the time. I’ve seen some of my clients who grew up with more money who [00:29:00] have almost like a survivor’s guilt around it. And the sense of like I was born on third base. I didn’t hit this home run, it’s not fair for me to make a good living.

And then a lot of our educational experiences going through our programs, there was often an emphasis on you need to treat the underserved. You need to not charge a lot. You need to take what you can get and you need to not complain about money because you’re doing this as a heart-centered practice and not to be greedy. I’m clear that doing great work, loving what you do, and enjoying making a good living, those things don’t have to be mutually exclusive.

Dr. Sharp: I think it’s so important to hear that over and over. We get that message so much in graduate school and beyond. I think a lot of folks doing testing too tend to maybe work primarily in [00:30:00] hospitals and settings where there’s not a whole lot of talk about taking money from folks and charging and it can be a leap to get into private practice and realize that, yeah, you do need to be comfortable with that.

Allison: Yeah. And that can bring us full circle to the networking thing because if you are charging a rate that someone can’t afford or won’t afford, depending, it’s important to have referral sources that you trust that may be able to accommodate what they can pay or will pay. That’s one thing that keeps me from feeling like I have to treat all the people with eating disorders in my city because that’s my specialty. I have great referral sources, people I would trust with my friends and family, and I feel good referring to them when I’m full or someone can’t pay my full fee or needs to use insurance.

Dr. Sharp: And maybe this is what you meant, but I could see that being a good way to reach out to other [00:31:00] folks who’re doing the same thing that you’re doing just to say like, hey, I need referral sources and I’d love to connect with you. And then it’s almost like you’re giving them something or helping them.

Allison: Absolutely.

Dr. Sharp: Which is always nice. I know that there’s so much that we could get into with money and networking and niching and all of that kind of stuff but I think this has been great just to touch on some of these things and start to be thinking about how these come into play as we’re building our practices. Before I let you go, two things, any parting thoughts around networking or practice building for folks who are doing testing in particular, I know I’ll put you on the spot here.

Allison: No, it’s good. I think one thing that I try to emphasize with people and we’ve touched on it,[00:32:00] not just testing in particular, but in any way going into business for yourself can feel scary and hard. And so if you’re building your testing practice and you’re starting to feel like a failure, it actually might mean you’re on the right track. We’ve all been through that fire, in order to get successful, you have to keep working a plan to get there.

And that’s when hiring someone like Jeremy can help if you need some guidance or getting your support systems around you so that you feel buoyed and supported in those times when you want to be sitting on the floor crying that it’s hard work emotionally more so than practically, and it’s totally worth it.

Dr. Sharp: I like that. I would agree with you. If people want to learn more about you or about your consulting or your podcast or anything, what’s the best way to get in touch with you?

Allison: Sure. My website is [00:33:00] abundancepracticebuilding.com got a lot of free resources on there. I also have a Facebook group that’s a lot of fun where people are loving and generous with their ideas and support.

Dr. Sharp: Oh, that sounds great. Well, thank you so much for taking the time to come and chat with me here for a little while about what I think is some really important stuff here in building practices. It’s been really great.

Allison: Thanks for having me.

Dr. Sharp: Yeah. Take care.

Allison: You too.

Dr. Sharp: Hey y’all. Thanks again for listening to my interview with Allison Puryear. Allison has a lot to say about building a practice and networking. She’s done it so many times in different cities and after coming back from maternity leave and I hope you found our conversation helpful.

Two things that jumped out to me were her reframe of networking and what that looks like specifically with doctors and [00:34:00] attorneys and folks where it might be tough to get in with them, but reframing it like you are providing a service and doing those folks a favor by giving them great referral sources rather than having it be something that’s intimidating or judgmental or anything like that.

So that was one piece that I took away and something that I found has been relevant for me too. Just last week I was at a pediatrician group’s office and they were like, oh, we’re so glad to have met you, we’re so glad to know this resource’s out there and it really was cool.

I will say, just to get to her piece about what kind of food to bring, I totally used her advice and contacted the front office staff and they told me exactly what to get those physicians that they hadn’t had a note, they wanted that day. So that was super helpful too.

The other piece that Allison brought up that I think is pretty relevant is [00:35:00] how we need to shift our mindset around money and how we charge for our services. A big part of that gets back to self-worth and knowing that the services we offer are valuable. And yes, they do cost a fair amount of money and these are life-changing services that many people really need, and we have the training to do that.

So if you haven’t done any amount of work on self-worth and money mindset and that kind of stuff, I definitely put in a plug to think about exploring that for yourself and I’ll put some resources in the show notes to help with that as well.

So thank you as always for listening to the podcast. As I’ve said, it’s so exciting to see things grow and see people continue to join our community. If you’d like more resources or do want to join the conversation on Facebook, first, you could go to the website, which is thetestingpsychologist.com. There you can find [00:36:00] links to articles and past podcast episodes, and you can also find a link to the Facebook community, which is The Testing Psychologist community. We’d be happy to have you there and happy to have you join the discussion.

I look forward to next week. I will be having a great conversation with Dr. Aimee Yermish, who is a psychologist on the East Coast. She specializes in assessment, therapy, and coaching with gifted and twice-exceptional kids and young adults. This podcast is super long, I’ll give you a warning, but there’s so much good information packed into this podcast.

She walks us through from the beginning to where she’s at now, how to build a thriving practice assessing kids with giftedness and young adults with giftedness and twice exceptional abilities. So definitely tune in for that and take care in the meantime. Bye [00:37:00] bye.

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